2013-02-10 [sammie h!]: I am good at css but, I can't crack [Hedda]'s, I can change background and left hand side and right, but as all members profiles are under the normal one, it would be hard to make this the new normal one, I can do fire themes, an elf theme and others, but that's all I can do, its [Hedda] who can change the buttons, not me. :(

2013-02-10 [Schlachter]: Thanks [sammie h!] for making it clear I'm not attempting to attack anyone or enforce my views. I also understand that [kittykittykitty] is one of our most conservative guards. I'm not usually one to go "apeshit bonkers" lol but I like the way you think [GlassCasket]. "You troll me, I troll you, we're a trolla familay, with big 'U Mad?' & a 'pwnd' from me to you, won't you say you'll troll me too..."
Okay enough of that... so we're all serious about this? We're going to bail out Elfpack & make it leet?

2013-02-10 [Schlachter]: [sammie h!] that's actually good enough. All we need is to write up a new ".css" file with all the stuff we want to change. Or have someone draw up what they want Elfpack to look like & I'll handle the rest... there are tons of ways to integrate this stuff without bothering [Hedda] with it.

2013-02-10 [sammie h!]: Well you are welcome to use css, what theme are you thinking of, pm me with the images and I will sort it tomorrow, only takes 5 mins?

Oh yeah, tomorrow I will be online most of the day on a computer so I will start work on whatever you desire lol. :)

2013-02-10 [Schlachter]: [sammie h!] last I checked that only allows for individual updates... I thought we were talking about a massive update of Elfpack in terms of CSS...?

Also I only look at art o.0' I can't make it... seriously... you don't want me to suggest a color scheme for Elfpack. Everyone will start puking anti-rainbows when they look at it XD

2013-02-10 [Deg]: What the heck is an anti-rainbow? I don't wanna experience puking that.

As for colors, this is what I suggested a while ago on Elfpack Logo Submissions...

I wouldn't mind a few more colors here or there. Light pastel-y blues, purples....But I wouldn't want it bursting with too many, I think I'd get annoyed if I had to stare at violent colors too long. Plus, with the neutral colors it makes donor rights (the colored text) seem so attractive and worth having.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: How about a baby blue color with elfs on the left? X

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: [Deg] lol damn straight you don't! Hint: it undoes a rainbow (it's really a rain-circle physics-wise).

But that is just a logo... & it is still grey-ish. Changing the logo isn't a big deal I think. What about the rest of the gloomy site?

The colored-text for donations is kind of ridiculous in my opinion... who donates just to get a few colors? not to mention, I could hack those colors if I really wanted them... *cough* we need a REAL ECONOMY!

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Yeah, I reckon we should just be aloud to use the colors, nobody has donated for ages so just let everyone use them, it may even get us more members just by doing that, as then they can make there profile colorful.

Elfpack, the place for colorful weardos lol. :)

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: lol, don't let [kittykittykitty] hear you...

no seriously, we need someone to fill the economics of Elfpack. I mean it can't even pay for itself... so that is already sign that we need to be worried. If [Hedda] feels like this is making his pockets lighter, he may pull the plug :(

That is usually what any good business person does when they get neither donations nor users...

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Lol why, she may say blahh, but it would be nice to have colours.

At least council and guards should get them to welcome them to the crew lol.

Well how about getting a sponsor? :)

2013-02-11 [Deg]: When I posted that comment on the EP logo page, I was talking about the whole of EP. Not just the logo colors, haha. :P

2013-02-11 [Deg]: sammie, like who? Who would sponsor a site that's dying? We need to make the site active before even attempting to coax anyone into donating any money.

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: Well yeah, I figured. Are any of you adept with Photoshop?

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: I new that lol. :)

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Nope, no access to it. :(

2013-02-11 [Deg]: No. I draw, but no Photoshop.

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: Hmm... how long would it take you to draw what you want Elfpack to look like color-wise & everything else you think should be changed?

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Mm. Well...I'm not sure how I'd go about it. If you gave me a couple of days to toy with it I could probably have a halfway decent picture of the main parts of EP and how I'd like to see them.

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: Take your time, I mean... it's a lot of work, but it will have to do... I couldn't draw if my life depended on it & it doesn't look like were going to get a lot of artists to help us out anyways...

I am currently building the EPnD/RP character profile editor system, but as soon as there is anything to work with in terms of site enhancements, [Stephen] & I can work on compiling them into Elfpack right away. That change might be enough to get us some more attention for starters...

2013-02-11 [Deg]: I'll take my time and try and make it as clear as I can. I have school all week, full time, but I'll try to make it some sort of priority.

Wow, that is sort of impressive. That'd be very interesting to see up and running.

2013-02-11 [GlassCasket]: Ya know what'd be cool...Since it's like, elves, and a pack...Have like a forest theme...or like fantasy like a log in pic i saw once...

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: Life has priority obviously. Take it easy, all of Elfpack depends on us, but I mean, we do what we can with what we have...

I'll try to have it up this week along with the ability for our crew to login, have dedicated email addresses, chat & share work tasks. & I'll try to reward our crew with as many e-goodies I can manage to fish from [Stephen], [Hedda], & myself.

& after this is all done, as promised previously, all artists who contributed will get a web kiosk attached to their own PayPal account that will give them access to full profits of sales from their artwork with the option of artists to donate from their profits to help support Elfpack.

2013-02-11 [Schlachter]: [GlassCasket] start inspiring some artists into drawing this stuff for you... maybe start writing about the environment you have in your mind. A lot of people, while reading high-end fantasy stories or about cool fictional places will immediately click into an inspiration mode that will put them in a mood to produce artwork.

2013-02-11 [Deg]: So. Sammie cracked the css (is that what it's called? I have no idea) and I tried it out on my house. Instead of the border and the (very hateful) picture of those (stupid pixelated) trees behind the top navigational buttons, this is what my house looks like.



Sooo much better. Now if we could only get a new border/picture behind the buttons, and change the color scheme overall (on the buttons, the whole gray of Elfpack) it'd be just...so much better.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Right, try again, I have 2 and a half hours left until I am back on my phone. :)

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Alright, with the new one she just gave me to put in, this is what my house and mainstuff looks like.




My opinion: Unlike the first css code she had me try, this one has the borders and the original picture behind the main navigational buttons. However, now there is instead of a dark green/light green scroll bar, a purple scroll bar. Also, there are colors behind the headings, etc, etc. I like the color scheme (purple and a lime green).

However, I feel that the green is much too bright. I think I wouldn't like having to stare at that all day. Could you make it a more pastel color? Something like this?



Same thing with the scroll bar, if you could find a color just a little less intrusive. Seeing that out of the corner of my eye is a little scary. Besides that, the accent colors are nice, but still way too much gray. If everything (not just the headers) was that nice green color with purple accents, that could be cool.

Also, need to replace the picture behind the buttons and the border with something else. or get rid of them entirely and make the buttons simply another color.

I don't know anything about developing a stylesheet for myself, but I'm just giving opinions on the stylesheets Sammie is making so far. Good job, by the way. I like the changes, they just need to be tweaked and furthered.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: How about a Gold color?

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: I can't edit [Hedda]'s buttons, there hard to crack. :)

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Now my entire comment box is a filled in lime green, haha.

Do whatever you want for colors. Try contrasting colors and try to keep them not so neon. I just don't want the site to start lookig totally goofy, haha. I'd pick two or three colors at most and stick with that.

Also, forgot to mention, the colors on my buttons make the text hard to see.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Keep the stylesheet on your house so you can keep watch and update the Council. :)

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Pick a color for the text, how about purple?

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Will do. However, please try and take my suggestions, as I'm already starting to get ill from all the lime green, haha. :)

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Purple text...hm. Try it. That'd be nice to go along with the purple scrolling bar.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Purple text in, now to find the background code...... Again lol. :)

I love the purple lol x

2013-02-11 [Deg]: I actually approve of the purple text in the buttons. I have to go to class now, but try and keep working at it. I'll be your test dummy, haha. In about an hour I'll be back again and I'll take a screenshot of the changes and mark the parts I personally like/dislike and we can go from there.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: http://www.elfpack.com/_.css

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Is that the most current stylesheet? Can you please PM me the most current if not.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: yes it is. :)

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Alright, here is what I'm seeing. Just to make sure we're on the same page, for sure.

(Top half of mainstuff)
(middle of mainstuff)
(top half of my house)
(capture of your house, Sammie)

2013-02-11 [Deg]: If this is correct--I mean, if this is indeed the stylesheet you're also seeing--then I have to say, I think it's too dark. It's worse than the default stylesheet in terms of dark colors. When I get home I'm going to continue what I said I was gonna do and try and draw what my idea of how EP should look. I don't have the resources now at school or the time to go over right now, haha. But still, good going. Better than I can do. I wish I knew how to do css codes so I could provide a very clear picture of exactly what I'd like to see, personally.

2013-02-11 [Cerulean Sins]: [Deg], try neutral colours and add a wee bit of lilac to brighten up the neutral colours. I only suggest this because I've taken a look at your mock up stylesheets for Elfpack and I find the colours to be a bit too harsh and miss match.

Sorry if am stepping on your toes.....

2013-02-11 [Deg]: Believe me, what you said is EXACTLY what I want. The style sheets you are seeing are [sammie h!]'s, to which I said nearly the same exact thing. You're not stepping on MY toes, I've been saying that all along, haha.

2013-02-11 [sammie h!]: Well pic some colors for me and I will get the codes. :) x

2013-02-12 [Deg]: Sammie, let me do something quick. I'm going to take screenshots of EP and mark them with the CSS color codes I want you to apply to the specific areas. If I did that, could you make me my own personal style sheet that I could use as a prototype?

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: Probably yes. :)

2013-02-12 [Deg]: I wish I knew how to do it myself, haha. I don't wanna bother you. Either way, I'll keep up on trying to draw my own vague picture just in case it doesn't pan out.

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: * treads lightly as to not disturb artists at work *
[sammie h!] I may be able to help you with the tags for the [Hedda] buttons... what & where are they?

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: I think I just need the buttons themselves, they need to have no text or anything. :)

[Deg] - its no skin off my nose.

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: for CSS buttons, use the:
input
{
border-radius:4px;
border:1px dotted white;
background-color:green;
color:black;
}

clause to generally specialize the buttons if you like. (in some cases look for the "class" attribute in the buttons -- the "Edit" button here is ".BALBUTTON1" instead of "input"
The example above should give you a generic green button with rounded corners & a dotted white contour with black text.

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: I will try it tomorrow or later today. :)

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: Let me know how it works out for you... I have a lot more tricks up my sleeve for that type of stuff. Once the concept has been set, I can take it to the integration step with [Stephen]. Since there are very few of us voting or caring about this, we probably can just decide amongst ourselves & just implement the design.

2013-02-12 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: Ok, so I know you can already change your style sheets to a few different things, but I think it would be cool if there were more to chose from.. Maybe with a page where people can see a preview of them. I know it might be too much for a request page (So people can request certain colors, styles, ext.) unless there are people who would volunteer to handle that.. I think that would help with being able to really make their page personalized.

I don't know about taking away maintenance Tuesday though, it can be a 'hassle' when I can't sleep, but I also think it's good that all the systems get checked and bugs can be spotted and fixed.

Also, for some contests.. I think it would be cool to have a panel of judges for them, maybe not necessarily only council members/volunteers.. Like for an art contest (Maybe monthly??) The previous winner(s)- if there are multiple types, drawing, poems, photography, short story,ext.- could be like a guest judge for it. Another good example that could use a panel of judges is that RP Contest that was started a while ago? I think it was a neat concept, but (Not wanting to offend anyone) having only one judge almost made it feel.. Bias (just my feeling though) and I dropped out after the first round for that. There can be member favorites and then those picked by the council? And someone can be selected as a tie breaker if need be?

Also (jeez, I hope I don't sound nit-picky or.. needy) It would be kind of neat to have a couple different log in page designs? I don't know if you can do that, but I think it would be neat to come to the log in page and have a different page. Maybe the banner or something could be made by members, council approved/ member voted on, and then randomly picked. (Again, not sure this can be done, I don't know a thing about web design.)

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: We can only have one log in design, and that is whatever [Hedda] sets.

and see CSS for more css codes, and if you would like me to make you one, I can, you just need to choose the Colours. :)

2013-02-12 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: Ah, ok :)

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: try http://www.elfpack.com/_.css

2013-02-12 [Deg]: I'm slowly compiling the colors and screen clips and such, trying to get as in depth as I can to make the job easier for you and also so we don't have to mess around so much and just get it done in one or two tries. At school again right now, hopefully sometime tonight or within the next few days I'll have at least one example of a stylesheet I'd like to use up so Sammie can start working on it. Also working on drawing a new border (where the imprisoned koalas are right now, haha). Obviously, if anyone else wants to have a go, once we have a few options I agree with [Schlachter]: Once the concept has been set, I can take it to the integration step with [Stephen]. Since there are very few of us voting or caring about this, we probably can just decide amongst ourselves & just implement the design.

Right on!

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: We can change that login design actually (through a script)... do we want to change it?

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: Sounds like stuff is going to change :)

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: Yeah, it's a good idea, I can change it on my css, but need a test rat lol. :)

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: what do you mean sounds like? :)

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: What kind of test rat XD be specific lol?
Is "looks like" better XD?

2013-02-12 [Deg]: "Looks like" is probably more accurate, but "sounds like"...eh. Same difference. Haha! Change = good.

I'm a test rat for Sammie! I test out the css codes she makes and see if I like it on my page, haha.

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: We're getting there though. That new sidebar is pretty good...

Excellent...

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: Have you recognised the color of the comment edit bar to lol. :)

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: No? Was it changed, I'm in FireFox here...

2013-02-12 [Deg]: I'm in IE, but at home I use Chrome. Does that make a difference?

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: It can with the detailed stuff. But in general, not really...

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: Damn, you changed the comment bar, it looked better before lol. :)

2013-02-12 [Deg]: Ah, alright, good to know.

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: [Deg] try it now. :)

2013-02-12 [Deg]: This is what I'm seeing, tell me if it's what you're seeing.

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: The same, it's right and changed again, also the banner is changed. :0

2013-02-12 [Deg]: It's definitely getting there. Much better, really. We're getting there!

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: Just need the main page bit changing, if nobody does it, I will tomorrow. :)

2013-02-12 [Deg]: Sounds good! Keep on messing with it, we'll get there eventually.

2013-02-12 [Deg]: I'm just happy we're even taking any steps at all, really.

2013-02-12 [Schlachter]: Yes, we're all on the same page.

2013-02-12 [Commandaaah]: ORANGE AND BLUE! I vote Orange and Blue.

..._{Orange. Blue.}

2013-02-12 [Deg]:

I like those colors! Soft shades of contrasting pastel Oranges and Blues...that's exactly what I think would look kind of nice!

2013-02-12 [sammie h!]: I love it, he and I have done a good job, him better though. :)

2013-02-13 [Commandaaah]: Yeah, and they're not hard on your eyes, either. If colors are too bright, it makes it hard to look at the screen and then it's more like a myspace profile page and we all know...myspace sucks balls.
...Don't make it like Myspace. :( WHATEVER YOU DO! NO MYSPACE

2013-02-13 [Deg]: No, I totally agree. This doesn't have to be a flashy site by any means. It's not meant to be the new Facebook, haha. We just want a nice little community. And it needs an updated look.

2013-02-13 [Commandaaah]: YES!!! :D

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: Yeah, I like it as it is, again can one of you screen grab it and put it in the Comments. :)

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Can do.

2013-02-13 [Deg]:

We're definitely getting closer. Some of the text is hard to read, maybe we should just keep the text black or at least a very dark color of whatever shade the box the text is showing up in. Also, I like the border (the blue and cursive writing), but it seems to be on the wrong side.

The biggest issue I have with it right now is the main navigational buttons. With the two different textures right on top of each other, they're really hard to see. Maybe keep the buttons just a solid color, blue or green or whatever, with a texture or completely different color underneath so we can differentiate easily.

2013-02-13 [Commandaaah]: Yeah...those two textures together are not good. Makes it hard to see, especially on my laptop D:

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: [Schlachter] can do that x

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Cool! :)

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Do what XD?

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: I find the site has taken the looks of the old Apple Macintosh operating system (Mac OS 9 or Classic) XD
Eventually, we should maybe look into so more modern graphics but keep the colors... what do you all think?

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Keep what colors? The gray colors?! NO WAY. Wait, yeah, that's not a bad idea. But I hope by upgrading graphics you mean the picture behind the navigational buttons and the border.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: No no, I meant these colours lol

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Yes, I mean the images used here... the gold slate for the text boxes is an example of what I mean by graphics...

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Ahhhh yes. Haha! That is alright, I kind of like that texture actually. I'm still not exactly sure if I like the main color, though. It's kind of...peachy.

2013-02-13 [Commandaaah]: It looks like Elftown...

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Well, unfortunately, a solid colour seems lackluster regardless of what color it is... it would be nice to actually have a rhododendron or pattern with high resolution. Such as an actual brick/cement wall texture with say ferns growing on it or the like... for example.
But we need goddamned artists for that... I'm no good at that stuff, so don't look at me XD.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: lol
good point [Commandaaah]
[kittykittykitty] will object to this CSS for sure...

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: We can also change some fonts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet_%28typeface%29
Let me know if that sounds like a good idea...

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Ah. Well, I could attempt something like that, haha. Although I'm sure there are more qualified artists...

I just can't stand the textures on there, now. I know what you're saying, when I was trying to draw up the style sheet I'd prefer, a solid color behind the buttons did look quite lame. However, the two textures on top of each other just aren't working. The buttons need to be solid if there is going to be a pattern behind them. That's just common fashion sense.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Hm. That font is interesting, to say the least. Where would it be applied?

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: Wait, Elftowns green, this isn't, Elftown also does not have colored comment boxes, this does. Elftown also doesn't have a right border and also a future left border, this does, elftown doesn't have a blue glow over the sending buttons, this does. :)

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: Not to keen on the font, also I like the buttons, but maybe a nicer dark image behind. x)

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: SCREW THE MORE QUALIFIED ARTISTS! THEY'RE NOT QUALIFIED ANYWAYS & NOT HELPING & IGN
You're a fantastic artist, don't worry about it [Deg]. The only difference between an outstanding artist & a bad one is the time they take to do something. Likewise, the more professional an artist, the less time required for them to produce a piece of work on average.

Solid colours seem to always look lame no matter what... I think it's time to look into bumping up the graphics another notch. We're not going to impress enough to avoid haters...

About the font XD I have no clue. I appreciate art, remember XD put it somewhere & I'll try to tell you if it seems to fit or not... or tell me where to put it...

2013-02-13 [Deg]: I don't really get the point of the border on that side, I rather just have one on the left side like we always did. But whatever, not really the point, haha. The peach is just...I don't know. I just don't enjoy it. However, if that was what everyone thinks is best...I just wanna get a few different ideas before we finalize everything. I promise, I'm still working on mine. Not that it'll be best, but at least we have a few to work with, then.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: And thanks, [Schlachter]! I appreciate it. In that case, I'll do my best and see what's up.

The only place I'm thinking I'd enjoy seeing that font is on Mainstuff, the "This is the Mainstuff of Elfpack" and the big headings for each News section (GEE, Jokers, etc.). Try it, once.

2013-02-13 [Commandaaah]: Woah! Was Elftown always green? O.o I remember it being peach.

I just meant the color, by the way... Not the layout.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: I know... we've put a lot of time so far in it [sammie h!]... but [Commandaaah] does have a point; even though it is not Elftown, the colors do seem to remind of it... & the style too... it is after all a heddate site... & [Hedda] never effing separated design from code (which is why it's such a headache to facelift his sites)... he's a BAD magician. In fact I vote we remove his name from the magicians & add [sammie h!]s there (since it is a harmless position that commands no power at all XD but seems prestigious to others lol)

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: I love the peach, it's not that bad, the grey was worse, it was to dull. :)

2013-02-13 [Deg]: HAHA. Well, as long as it doesn't have the power...

And she is helping, that's for sure. She's working the CSS better than I can.

I'm not sure about the green text, still. Or the peach background color. However, the green color...that is alright, if we could find a complimentary color.

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: It's always been Green to my knowledge, writersco is peach, I think?

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: I may changed the text color tomorrow, I have 10 hours tomorrow starting from 9am uk time until 7pm x

2013-02-13 [Commandaaah]: Maybe that's what I'm thinking of! I was on there for a while, I forgot about that place.......lol whoops!

IforgotaboutCatHugToo. >.>

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: [Deg] as long as she doesn't figure out how to do REAL magic XD we're good lol

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Yes, yes I suppose you are right! That wouldn't be good for anyone, haha!

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Deal is, for the background... let me suggest either a full background:
Example:

Or a textured one:

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: A full one would be non-scrolling. A textured one, tiled.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Ahhh, I see what you mean. I like the idea of the full background, myself. Can I try and make one? How big would it have to be?

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: Mmm I kind of do know the magic, but I aint changing that and breaking the rules lol. :)

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: The ideal is to make the background as big as possible without going over 500KB or else well notice the lag in loading the site. So a good start would be to stick with 1280x1024...
It's no easy task though...
textures tend to be a better bet... but they can make a site look like it was pre-historic (Elfpack was with the grey theme, but I mean, were still in the Ice Ages now...)

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Yeah, agreed. Hey, I like the borders! For some reason, it looks really classy to me. Can we change up some stuff so there is less green on this site and more blue to match the border? It'd make it pop a little more.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: They look like Greek columns from the Acropolis with antique Latin writing on them. It still could use a lot of graphic improvement...

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: What would you like me to change that is green?

2013-02-13 [MadHatress]: I think an Elfpack app would be cool; it might even boost attendance on the site by like... 4999%.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Heeeey! I like this color scheme a lot better! I'm working on some graphics. I'm still gonna attempt a background but I also wanna see what you guys think of a couple borders I come up with.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: The problem with an app (with both Android phones & iPhones) is that Elfpack would have to cover a developer fee... which requires either donations or will not be for free. [Stephen] & me are waiting for poll results before making a move... so please please please invite others here [MadHatress] it is of the utmost urgency that you all come here to represent the Elfpack community.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Sure thing, fire them away. Maybe we should move the talk about the design to another wiki... maybe? We are cluttering what is supposed to be a discussion about redesigning... not the actual thing XD lol
Maybe this opinion is not shared though, in that case disregard...

2013-02-13 [sammie h!]: Do it through a forum wiki or on the council forum. :) x

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: You're good at that type of stuff [sammie h!]... will you fire one up for us XD?
Oh but wait, won't there be an issue with non-council members being able to collaborate?

2013-02-13 [Deg]: That would be my only issue with it. I'd suggest setting up another wiki page specifically for graphics and design purposes only. We'll still be watching this wiki of course so if anyone has any graphics imput we can simply link them to the new page. That's what I'd do, anyway. A forum would be nice, But like you said, Then non Council members Will not be able to view as easily. Or can we set up forums for non Council members? To be honest, I don't even really know how forms work specifically.

2013-02-13 [Deg]:

For instance, I just really quickly tried to make a border just to see if it'd work. There's lots of problems with it, I know it's low quality, but it took ten minutes and it was seriously the most basic thing I could do in that time just to see how it'd fit in.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: I was on my phone a moment ago and the background looked more orange than it does now on my computer. Still that same peach color, actually. Right? Or not. Doesn't really matter. Maybe we should try a very lightly textured background? With the green on the sidebars (for instance, in the Elfpack Status column) maybe we could make the main background color just a tiny bit more blue or green? I don't know why I dislike the peachy color so much. Again, you guys are doing great work and I'm super pleased on the amount you keep producing and I can't even begin to understand how you do it. But it'd be nice just to see.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: That's actually pretty awesome... & if you cooked that up in 10 minutes only, you are definitely pro. I thought you wanted less green stuff though?

I don't think anyone changed the background [Deg] it's still the same solid peach-color. I think we'll go nowhere debating the color... I think we really need an image... some kind of post-modern art or photography really... but that's just my opinion.
Do you know HTML color codes? i.e.: #E0C677? If you could use a color picker to tell me what color you want, I'll put it up for you to see...

As for forum/wiki, someone should discuss the politics & decide... I will just dump work wherever I can otherwise. Then it will be a problem tracing one another or get heard. We're just lucky we're only 4-5 people discussing for now...

2013-02-13 [Deg]: I actually like green, I just don't like bright green, haha. I like subtle, natural, earthy colors. Browns, tans, greens, blues.

Just for the heck of it, change the color of the comment boxes/main background of EP to this color: #F8E0E0 and the color of the houses to #BCF5A9.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: I know the seven colours of the rainbow (actually rain-circle... I will start calling it that from now on) + black & white & that's pretty much it. XD you have officially lost me my dear [Deg] XD

Will do.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Although I'm starting to think that you're absolutely right, that debating the colors is going to be a little worthless in the end. If we came up with a solid background texture or picture, that'd be best. Of course, solid colors can all mix together rather well but lots of different textures can't. The background and the graphics would all have to coincide, some how. Ack, too much to think about right now. I gotta go to bed soon.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Haha! I'm sorry about that. I'm the typical artsy type, when someone says they like blue I ask what shade. Thanks!

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: The backgrounds are done... now for the house colors...

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: done.

2013-02-13 [Deg]: I don't mean to be a terrible person, but I don't see any difference. Am I using the right style sheet? I have http://www.elfpack.com/_.css applied to my house.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: That's correct. You got it. Refresh your cache & you should be fine. I see the changes from my end, let me know if you do as well...
Nothing about being a terrible person.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Got it?

Also we could move the design stuff over to .css & [sammie h!] can add members as needed to the forum group... maybe?

2013-02-13 [Deg]: Yes, got it now. And that's a fine idea, let's do that.

2013-02-13 [Schlachter]: Okay see you all there then.

2013-02-18 [sammie h!]: Please come visit Style Requests to request a stylesheet you may like. :)

2013-02-19 [Silverline]: If there are flashing graphics, it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that there is a function that turns them off or hides them. You could ruin someones day or put them in the hospital without making the site properly accessible; at the very least it would drive current members of the elfpack family away because it could pose a risk to their health.

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: There isn't any flashing images. :)

2013-02-19 [Silverline]: Just making sure that in any updates we keep things accessible.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: Why are so many people taking such a strict pose on this? We haven't even started anything officially on installing into mainframe Elfpack, & here rains a parade of shit. 24 votes, & only "you're going to ruin this site", "be careful not to scare people away more" (like they aren't fucking leaving on their own seeing your gloomy asses). [Silverline] did you read the earlier posts: were ADDING TO ELFPACK NOT CHANGING IT. The old Elfpack shit remains the goddamn SAME!

Don't you think the people here are intelligent enough to know that epilepsy is a serious modern problem? Especially noting almost everyone here is a gamer & ALL games have warnings for that issue? I'm fucking German & we are kind of born with that intuition... & I'm sorry if in America you need a label to tell you that something flashy can cause epilepsy... but please... if you all want your 4x4 fucking Internet electronic desert cell just tell me right the fuck now so that I don't waste my day doing things that will not be used or appreciated. kthxbai

I get ONE more stupid comment like that & that's IT! You artists LOVE to demean work that is not yours... inferiority complex much?
THINK BEFORE YOU FUCKING TYPE. No I am not pissed off, I am appalled that doing people a favor by adding to their site & making it a merrier place with less condescending behavior & crazy fucks is causing such negative reactions.
It's like fucking Russia on the Internet. We could all fucking write some Dostoyevsky here...

I am dead serious now. You want to be gloomy & sad, great, write about it on your profile & stay there. Because if I hear it here again, I will fucking write off my priv 79 down to a 101 or use it to ban myself (yes I can do that, there's a script for it -- then I REALLY won't be able to login again; I'll block my own IPs too). I'm not even hearing from [GlassCasket] or [Morgoth] anymore so that's that. This is the last straw. We're asking for fucking help & we get diarrhea... no fucking thanks. Sorry for the excessive swearing, but it had to be done.

Another thing... instead of going around telling people what not to do, apply to the fucking open-door-policy crew & start giving orders. We'll fucking take them. Then you can ensure all the rules you could possibly like are met or heard of. But no... the rectal bloom makes more sense does it? Verdammt! Scheisse verdammt!

& don't anyone dare delete this comment! I want you all to read it! If you want Elfpack to be more than it is, then YOU have got to change before that can happen. It is YOUR complaints that brought this idea about... if you want to kill it you are doing the RIGHT thing!

2013-02-19 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: Wow.... Way to be an ass about someone's opinion... People aren't going to read through 14 pages of comments, most of which have to do with the stylesheet (or at least the ones I've been through).

So just calm down, and take it for what it was: Someone asking that everything still be accessible and safe, which isn't demeaning to any artwork, nor is it bossing you around.

If you guys (or maybe just you [Schlachter]) are going to be assholes about it, people will leave.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: I don't see how I am being an asshole. Please enlighten me. I came here to improve the site, & all I get are comments that demean the current workforce. I won't have it.

Either it is constructive criticism or it is help. If it is just "be careful, you could ruin the site", then you will get your chance to do it all without me.

I stand my ground until proven wrong. You put your hours on this site then read ridiculous comments like the ones that were put here, then talk.

2013-02-19 [Silverline]: Well I'm sorry (not sorry!) for asking for accommodations (not just for epilepsy, by the way!) and I am excited about making improvements and drawing new people to the site, but I needed to make sure that no one got hurt in the process.

I'm not being "gloomy and sad", I'm trying to make sure that disabled people get treated like human beings. I'm not saying that we can't have flashy pretty things; just that there would need to be a way to turn it off. Why is it so hostile to ask for a little basic consideration? Isn't elfpack about everyone deserving their own space, having a safe and fun community?

Thank you, [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife].

Making a community accessible *is* improving it. That is helping. If Elfpack was a physical place and you asked for improvements and there were no wheelchair-accesible bathrooms and there were only stairs I would speak up about those, too. Everyone matters on elfpack. Everyone.

I gave suggestions on how to keep things safe while adding to the site THAT IS CONSTRUCTIVE. THAT IS HELPING. I DIDN'T DEMEAN ANYONE. But its good to know that you believe that considering the disabled worthy of the same consideration as the rest of elfpack is "ridiculous".

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: There's an open door for suggestions... NOT vile comments. I read the stuff here. All of it. I have no respect for someone who pops on here, just to throw some poorly coughed up "don't do that" without providing the why or how then disappear. Those who truly want to contribute should do so with encouragement or constructive criticism. Or at least a flat out "I vote we terminate the project".

2013-02-19 [Silverline]: I don't want to terminate anything.

My original comments could have been worded better, I will concede, however I did provide a why and how.
HOW: "a function that turns them off or hides them"
WHY: "You could ruin someones day or put them in the hospital"

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: If you were disabled you would NEVER have said that.
A disabled person does NOT want people to make them feel like they are disabled. So yes, they should be treated like every other Elfpacker, why not? I am not going to discuss this here anyways.
I have no objection however to making specific style sheets for specific needs. We initially started off with a style sheet that we hoped everyone could agree on & that would pose no issue for anyone. & if you are up for the task of special style sheets [Silverline], the job is YOURS.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: The "how" & "when" was meant in a figurative sense where you would be expected to take an active role in it & not just a bland statement requesting some vague corrections when the concept was not even proofed by looking or loading the work done so far.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: We have polluted the wiki. This is not good.

I will no longer give anymore warnings.

You want to help, JOIN THE CREW. This applies to everyone. Unless the comment here is about the poll or suggestions to or about it, it SHOULD NOT BE HERE. Comments/Discussions... once again... about the style sheet & what is on it (flashy, not flashy, obscene, not obscene, graphic, colourful, whatever) go HERE -> .css.
Concrete suggestions HERE -> Style Requests
Keep to the code.

2013-02-19 [Silverline]: I AM DISABLED. It is not a bad word and YES I do need to be treated differently because not giving someone accommodations could literally kill them. You wouldn't go "Oh, shouldn't treat them like they're disabled better take out this ramp" if I was suggesting how to improve the stairs-only building.

No, I can't do stylesheets myself, but I was under the impression that people wanted suggestions! Another suggestion is that wiki pages could have warnings next to them in the index or something if they contain flashy images just like there are warnings for nudity; it really isn't that difficult. I am taking an active role, I'm advocating for myself and others and throwing out suggestions. No, I don't know how to make these things happen on a website because that isn't my area of expertise. I didn't know that we had to make our suggestions happen on our own.

Fine, I'll leave but it did pertain to the poll as the poll mentions flashy stuff. Thank you for redirecting me and sorry for my "pollution."

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: Right... & we're taking out a ramp now are we? Whatever happened to "help us help you". You want to discuss this, make it private. It does not belong here.

You don't have to do style sheets as long as you know what should be done, the rest can be queued as a task for those with the know-how. We do want suggestions & we take them at the two wikis given above.
If you are making a suggestion you are committing advice. That is a promise of sorts to help. If you wanted to throw an idea, this wiki is about the POLL. No style sheets here.

I said "we" when I referred to polluting the wiki. & I told you, take it with me in a PM if you want to hack at me. If you want to help, we want & need your help desperately. Any help! If your aims are not to demean the work done (& I see they aren't) then you are in the wrong place for making these suggestions. This wiki gets a lot of invites & a lot of people see the negative comments that go here. & if they see them that means they will be discouraged. Especially if it is someone with authority or who has been here a long time.

2013-02-19 [Silverline]: okay, I will move my suggestions. Sorry for my mistake and any discouragement I caused. Thank you for your help.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: No, thank you. & please help advertise the cause if you believe in it.

2013-02-19 [Stephen]: o_O

[Silverline]: We are always willing and happy to do as much as we can to assist members and accommodate everyone in anyway that is possible. Don't worry about any kind of flashing graphic being incorporated into the main site layout; we dislike forced animations as much as the next person does. If there's anything you think we should do and work on to make Elfpack more enjoyable, be it graphical or otherwise, please inform us and we'll do the best we can. Just remember: The more clear you are, the more we can help you.

Have a nice night ~ :D

2013-02-19 [Stephen]: Oh, and to those who were taken aback by [Schlachter]'s comment, the big reason for that is because we, the Council as a whole, have been trying idea after idea to repair things, and none of it has worked. On top of that, you can read across diaries, moods and profiles that people say the site is dying; but they never try to help us fix anything, just comment that they think we're not doing things well.

It gets very discouraging; there's a reason over the last year I've went from having 20 Council members, to having about 7. /:

Remember everyone, that we are all volunteers and get no payment whatsoever from what we do -- the sole reason we're here on an official basis is because we want to help the members, we want to improve Elfpack, and we believe in the cause. When the members -- the ones we really do everything we can for, are very negative about things, it really hurts the moral of the Council. ):

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: Amen to that, well said. :)

2013-02-19 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: Sorry [Stephen], but [Schlachter]'s reaction tells me that you aren't. Which is sad because after 10+ years on this site, I know for a fact that you are.

But maybe this is the kind of reaction that people are fearing will come to them if they put their suggestions anywhere other than a diary, or in comments to friends. [Schlachter]'s reaction of "I AM SICK AND TIERED OF YOU PEOPLE" was NOT in any way ok-leave that for your diary, and if you don't like what has been suggestion, then say "Thank you, we'll consider it' and move on. I'll be keeping any further suggestions of mine to council members/volunteers that I personally know because of [Schlachter]'s reaction as a whole. I wont give my suggestions to people who lash out like children told they can't have a candy bar.

Good bye.

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: See, this is childish, I accept what you are saying, but as I said before, we have no flashing images of any sort, also I would like to point out that when you go from page to page, it flashes onto the next page, therefor that is a flashing image.

2013-02-19 [Deg]: [Schlachter]'s reaction was his and his alone. It shouldn't even have been posted here; if he had a personal problem with it, he probably should have confronted [Silverline] privately. That being said, what [Stephen] said was true, even if he said it in a very diplomatic way. It's easy to get stressed out when people are not giving specific suggestions besides, "It looks ugly". [Stephen] himself gave me one of those the other day and I was like, um, no. Not acceptable.

So, there's that. I'm not defending or accusing [Schlachter]. He did was he did. He's a hard worker and trying as much as anyone else. His response doesn't exactly represent the feelings of everyone else, and keeping your comments to yourself/people you know just because of him isn't helping EP as a whole. This wiki is supposed to be productive. Come on, people. Get it together.

2013-02-19 [Deg]: I'd also like to say [sammie h!] comment right after [Silverline]'s should have ended it right there. "There isn't any flashing images. :)"

2013-02-19 [Deg]: Problem solved.

2013-02-19 [Commandaaah]: I concur!

2013-02-19 [Deg]: Hear, hear!

2013-02-19 [Commandaaah]:

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: Thanks [Deg]

2013-02-19 [Deg]:

That's how I feel about drama.

2013-02-19 [Stephen]: I believe the point that [Schlachter] was trying to make, was that destructive criticism doesn't result in much other than destructive reactions and results. I'll admit that it was strong-worded, but comments like those have been why I've been losing my Council. Comments like those are why [Bookwyrm] left. Members flaming crew members and telling them that they fail, are among the reasons that our prior-prior Warden, [Sunrose] retired. I understand that [Silverline] was not trying to speak in a way that sounded destructive, but when you work for hours on an almost daily basis, devote so much of your free time to something, and get ragged on in return from the people you're attempting to help, it's distressing. I've debated retirement before myself, and if I wasn't relatively sure things would decline on a serious level if I did retire, I likely would. It's not a very rewarding job. ):

It's not our intent to hurt anyone, upset them or make them feel like they cannot speak to the Council as a whole, but on the same note being told comments such as "Site's dying." "No one logs on." "Nothing gets updated." "It'll just make things worse", results not only in us feeling like the effort we're putting into this site is not worthwhile, but also that putting more effort into it will also be rewarded with the same comments.

It can take us, as a group, days of talking, planning, effort and figuring to get something up and going nicely, with all of us working to put together ideas. It really sucks when it's done, and no one cares. It's much worse when it's done, and we're told that the effort isn't good enough.


I believe [Silverline]'s comment was a direct response to me using the word "flashier" in the poll, and her looking as it as a direct link to flashing graphics, which isn't what I intended, and because I realized that was misleading, I reworded it to prevent such miscommunication from concurring once again.

I've been on this site for longer than most, and I've been working, on and off, as a crew member of some level since 2004. I've seen almost the entire crew leave since then, and it's almost always the same reason. I don't want Elfpack to decline to a stale site with a Council that's completely aloof; it's been my goal since becoming Warden to get members more involved, and the Council more down to Earth. Both of those are not easy to do, and I've met resistance on both ends. It's a process though, a long one, and we all need to be willing to work with one another and understand mistakes, or we won't make progress.

2013-02-19 [Deg]: Great. Agreed.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: I admit it was a misfire for me to hack away as I did at [Silverline] but it was absolutely necessary. You look at the past few comments we got here from people that were not on the crew, they were all negative. It needs to be hammered in clearly that if these comments keep showing up -- genuine or not -- I'm punching in my number. Some of us want this as polls clearly show... but unless people step up & ask for an option stating "I disapprove of any addition to Elfpack & nothing should be done" (which should be added [Stephen], let's be fair to the genuine haters; I have no problem with them or that idea) which hasn't been requested so far, I will take these as personal indirect attacks at the crew for doing their work.

I never advertised my views as the views of the crew... they are my own, but they are not "personal" views. If you want a system that works, this is a mandatory element of control that is needed. I am also part of the crew, so part of the crews views DO in fact involve mine.

As I stated before (& this is my last word on the subject), ONE more negative comment here & I am GONE. I will drop this all over an instant. As [Stephen] said... volunteer work... no pay... taking up valuable time from our lives. Respect that or I am out. It doesn't even have to be directed at me... if it is directed at ANY crew member, I will be gone & I will not come back. This is very serious. Time = life. Value it like you value your own.

2013-02-19 [Stephen]: It's hard to enforce that, though. It's more or less setting yourself up to leave, because we're going to run into people who will make drama just for the hell of it, along with people who don't intentionally make drama but just don't communicate thoughts and feelings well. :P

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: Please don't, we will miss you, I just ignore comments, please can we take this chatter to the private forum, may be better for it. :)

And I agree with [Stephen]. that's how I see it, you can't live your life with out haters or hatred comments being sent to you, so you just live with it, and reply nicely, and if it carry's on and on, just ignore it or politely ask them to stop with there rudeness and if they don't, report them for spamming or harassment.

Just an idea: instead of a list for the reports, how about tick boxes, as some members can receive hate messages through spam so that's two in one so tick two boxes etc?

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: Haters must be punished in some way or form. If they post, they must be shortly followed by severe trolling & rebuttal hate.Call it capital punishment on the web lol
No... not really, just delete the comment if it doesn't belong on a professional wiki. I want to see that this is NOT a supported comment. Because the people who see it & leave it there support it indirectly. Doing nothing when you see something wrong is perpetuating that wrong.

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: True. :)

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: I'm off in ten mins but will be on Blackberry. :)

2013-02-19 [Cerulean Sins]: O.o
God I miss a lot when it,s maintenance day.......

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: lol, everyone does, and that needs to stop lol. ;)

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: You did not miss much really. You were sorely missed though.

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: That could put people off to. :)

2013-02-19 [sammie h!]: Can you advertise the stylesheet please

2013-02-19 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: I've always kept my suggestions private because I know people are more likely than not to take things personally.. And I agree that it should have ended with [sammie h!] pointing out that there weren't any flashy images.. But it didn't.

I wasn't attempting to create drama, and nor was [Silverline]. Nor were my suggestions negative, and I don't think that's how it was intended by her either.

But [Deg] when you see that kind of comment, from my point of view, it's more of a I need to find people who wont lash out because I never want one person's reaction to make me throw in the towel on a sight I love.. And I have a low tolerance for people demeaning me (and my country) because someone said 'please keep the sight accessible'... I'd love to work with people on making the sight better, and seeing it how it was ten years ago when I joined. It was a safe haven, with people similar and very different from me that didn't judge me because I'm a little crazy... It doesn't feel like a safe haven anymore, and I desperately want that to change.

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: if your suggestions are suggestions, then you go ahead & spill them out. We would love to hear them.

I came off harsh to make a stand on the topic. It is necessary. You want to see it as a "10 year old immature kiddie-rant" fine... but know that it put you & everyone else in the state you needed to be in: a realization of WHY no one is here anymore. They see something to fix, & there is motivation for it... so they go ahead with it. Then the haters & hating comments flood in. Not good. Most people don't have the emotional tolerance to deal with those personal attacks (which are not meant as such, but worded to show such) & that does them a lot of harm, & unjustly so.

[Silverline] did no direct harm. Neither did you. But the attitude towards the site has to change. Everyone wants you to share your help, support & ideas. I am sure some are really great. But you cannot agree or do nothing when someone shuns the hard work of the crew.

[Stephen] has brought the ability for individual members to show off what they have got to help Elfpack. This is an opportunity that did not exist in the past. Guards & members were dogs & cats before.

2013-02-19 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: I have given suggestions, a while ago. I got feedback on a couple of them and the others I assume were filed away for now? Which is fine because we can't work on a hundred things at once. But [sammie h!] was the only one to respond, and she answered questions.. So yeah, I was trying to work with people.

And I'll keep the rest of my response to myself because it wouldn't be productive.

2013-02-19 [Cerulean Sins]: Ummmm....going to bow out for a moment so I can have a smoke.......

2013-02-19 [Commandaaah]: *I totally wish I could click like on that comment.*

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: I am doing my best to hear as many people as I can. It is rather difficult to keep track of them... I am not the best for keeping track of so many things. However, I would be very grateful if you would record them somewhere such as Style Requests. If you like, you could help manage the tasks there as we are getting some screen captures of requests & that is flooding me. I will get to every request & will leave none behind.

2013-02-19 [Cerulean Sins]: Bowing back in for a moment........

[Schlachter] I think Hannah, [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife], would be perfect for that :-)

Bowing out so I can read my book........ tweet me if ya need me @MLPratley

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: I think so too. You've got the job, what do you say?

[Cerulean Sins]: you also could help, but I know you're a lazy one. Actually, you are helping... haha nevermind.

2013-02-19 [Sigyn, The Faithful Wife]: Yeah sure, why not? I want to help out, and I usually log in and stare at old active rps and get sad.. This way I can productively 'waste' time. :)

2013-02-19 [Schlachter]: There will be a LOT more help when we start making a richer RP system so this is a good start for us all.
You'll get to know more about the people that are here too... more than a profile can tell you. This is something we never had on Elfpack before.

2013-02-20 [GlassCasket]: quack

2013-02-20 [Schlachter]: I think he means to say "Quaker".